Name: Anga Friday Jones
Anga Friday Jones - Forrest's Fort, Wally Dowling, and Martu women [ORAL HISTORY]
Other Speaker/s: Kaye Bingham
Synopsis: Friday Jones tells the story of Forrest's Fort, and of Wally Dowling shooting Martu men to take Martu women.
Language spoken: English
Catalogue number: CSROH_01_Anga_Friday_Jones
Interviewed By: Karen Dayman, John Carty
Transcribed By: Monique La Fontaine
Location Recorded: near Lake Nabberu
Cultural Protocols: Public Access - Restrictions on Use
Full transcript: Karen Dayman: You started talking about one of them, a kartiya [white person] ...
Friday Jones: Yeah, yeah.
KD: Number 9 Well, which was the main place for the Martu.
KD: Martu tried to spear him I think ...
KD: ... And then he tried to shoot ‘em. That place is where the fort is.
KD: I’ll just put a note ‘cause we were talking: on Wongawal Station, Kaye’s father was killed. And we then talked about whether you want to bring out some of those harder stories
KD: You said: ‘I like to say that sort of story but some people don’t like it. I knew people who saw it there, Skeleton Rockhole, that’s what they called it. The old people told me, I was too young. The station mob, they were right there. I think Wally Dowling used to shoot people too. What he done, lotta people used to tell me ‘bout him. He used to come around before my time, he killed people.’
And then I said, ‘What about Peter Gogo’s father?’ [You said:] ‘Yes, he killed him. That was around Snell’s Pass.’ Was that named after Billy Snell?
FJ: Yeah, Billy Snell, yeah.
KD: [Karen reading Friday’s transcript again]: ‘The reason why must be, he would see a big mob of people, he just had to shoot em. Henry Ward, that kartiya [white person] stops at Glen-Ayle Station he knows all that story. He’s old now. And then there were a lot of people all along the Canning Stock Route, all along, especially around Number 9 Well.’
FJ: Yeah, yeah, Number 9 Well. That’s the most people got shot there.
[Long interval. Camp noise, Friday speaks Martu to someone in the background.]
FJ: But yeah, that’s where all the people was, Number 9 [Well]. Only one of the explorer, with the camel come round shooting ‘em all.
John Carty: Do they know why they shot ‘em? Why those explorers were shooting?
FJ: I don’t know. I don’t know, they just come along, seen a big mob a people there in Number 9 spring, they just sorta, I think the people got savage for them kartiya [white people], and they trying to spear ‘em. And they, he had a big rock round him and start shooting ‘em.
JC: Like a fortress.
FJ: Yeah. They start, he start shooting ‘em, all the people. Don’t know why. He might be frighten of getting speared. He start shooting ‘em, them peoples, that bloke there now, kartiya [white person]. He shoot all the people there, just walk. Went away. Just like nothing. That’s old people was telling me that story.
JC: At the station?
FJ: Yeah, where that place is now, Number 9 [Well].
FJ: Yeah, they just telling me, ‘Oh, that’s where all the Martu been gettin’ shoot here, getting shot. Just like a mob a jarntu [dogs/dingos] I think. They come along and shootin’ ‘em, they start spearing people. I don’t know whether they spear that white fella, or, don’t know. He must be got away.
JC: Did those old fellas say which way he was travelling, that ...
FJ: He was travelling that a way, from that a way, or might be ...
JC: Coming from east?
FJ: Coming from east, yeah.
JC: Kakarrajanu [from the east]
FJ: Yeah, kakarrajanu [from the east].
JC: He might be in this book here …
[Kaye Bingham and Annette Williams talking in background looking at book, kids talking, Joe Duncan, camp noise, etc.]
KD: I think that kartiya’s [white person] name John Forrest.
FJ: John Forrester. Oh yeah. Yeah, John Forrester.
JC: Did those, when you were growing up on the station, down there, Carnegie, did those, some of those old people tell you other stories, about that same kinda, when Martu and kartiya [white people] were spearing and shooting?
FJ: Yeah, they were always telling me lotta story, for, you know, ‘bout these white-palas [white fellas]. ‘Cause they use to rough handle ‘em you know, with a whip. Just round ‘em up, and just, with a whip. Cut ‘em everywhere, you know, for nothing, just to get ‘em mad. Don’t know why, they must been really cruel that mob, them days, yeah. [Background noise]
JC: Did they say that about those droving men, like those kartiya [white people] who were droving?
FJ: Yeah, they, like a droving was, kartiya [white person] bloke, ngana [what’s his name] Wally Dowling, he’s a people that drove from that-a-way, Billiluna.
JC: Coming down.
FJ: Coming down Wiluna. But he met lot of, lotta Martu womens there too. Yeah, yeah [laughs], and he sorta, he sorta do that just to take their woman. But you see lotta, the land now, whats-a-name, round Palarji [Well 9], or here somehow, that’s where lotta people used to stop there.
FJ: Palarji, on the Canning Stock Route, Palarji. Palarji. That’s where a lotta people stopped there.
KD: Near where?
KD: Yeah but ...
FJ: Well. I think that’s Well along Canning Stock Route. That’s where he sort of shoot ‘em and had a black woman.
JC: Wally Dowling? He might shoot that nyupa [husband]?
FJ: Nyupa [husband], yeah, and he take ‘em way. Lotta, well couple of, couple of, white … that we knew [?] from that place up here, Palarji, round Palarji, ‘cause they been robbing ‘em for their nyupa [wives], you know. But he’s cruel bastard, he shoot ‘em all, you know. Well not all, just shoot ‘em and get the woman and take ‘em, yeah. Yu [yes].
KD: And the dray story, you wanna tell us that one?
FJ: Dray, well, I don’t nothing much about it but I used to listen from that old people. They used to pull that dray along that Canning Stock Route, from Billiluna at, right along the Canning Stock Route. They come through this, what you call it the Sandy Desert, through there, yeah. But they used to dodge them places, some places. Go round ‘em, end of the sandhill, come in. They don’t go over like that, they sort of follow the sandhill, come in again, keep goin’ like that, end of the sandhill.
JC: Is that ‘cause they couldn’t get …
FJ: They couldn’t get that dray over. They sort of follow that sandhill, come round and keep goin’ like that you know, where the end of the sandhill, keep going on like that, long the flat, level ground. But today ...
KD: Long trip.
FJ: ... you see a road go over a sandhill over and over, take you all day. You start early it’ll take you all day, right up to camp! [Laughs] Good one. We goin’ through there?
JC: Yuwayi [yes].
KD: And is that dray still in Wiluna?
FJ: Yeah, last one, last dray. They had to have a lot of camel to pull it, no horse. The horse couldn’t pull that. Camel, they don’t care, them camel, they strong and … without water, they go for ... nearly week, couple a week I think, without water. But they had all in government well all the way.
KD: What about donkeys?
FJ: Yeah, they had donkeys. But they were riding donkeys, they tough, them donkeys. They had horses. They had couple a hundred horses, yeah. But you have to change every, every day, different. You might have four horse, ‘nother bloke have four. Four, four, four each. Gotta change his horse every day to ride. Yeah.
JC: You were talking yesterday, with those big mobs of drovers there might be just a few kartiya [white people]and big mob of Aboriginal people travelling with them as well.
FJ: Yeah, yeah.
JC: More Martu than …
FJ: Martu, more Martu. Might be couple a bosses, you know, kartiya [white person]. And one of them is Wally Dowling and I think ‘nother bloke, Mal Brown, they call him, Mal Brown. He the one of the, he the one of the drovers, he drove with Wally Dowling. He had his revolver all the time, he got this revolver. He had it all the time. You know, revolver?
JC: Yuwayi [yes].
FJ: He had ‘em all the time.
JC: That Mal Brown one?
FJ: No, Wally Dowling. Yeah, he had his all the time.
KD: And no boots someone said.
FJ: No, he don’t wear boots, no. He tough. He foot big. I seen him once, last drovin, come through, come to Wongawal, ah ... Carnegie I mean. And his big picture there too. His big picture got him there in the wall there.
JC: What did he look like?
FJ: Ah, rough old bastard. [Laughter] Big fella. Well, I call him that. [Laughs] He rough. No smile on him. He’s hard. Tough old bastard. Sorry. [Laughs again.]
JC: Talk straight!
FJ: Yeah, if you, anytime you go to Carnegie, you walk in Carnegie, that got little shop there, Carnegie shop you see a big picture, picture ‘bout him, and mob a big cattle. They got a big picture ‘bout him in Carnegie. And mob a cattle. His offsider was Mal Brown.
JC: So they travelled together?
FJ: They travelled together. Before it he’s, he don’t, that old Mal Brown, he don’t know, he [Wally Dowling] too much this one here, [gestures drinking] whisky. Yeah.
KD: Mal didn’t like it?
FJ: Mal didn’t like him. The ways he carries on, he just leave, and he went to Windida, he stayed there at there, Windida. But he’s good, Mal Brown, he’s alright. And ah, you heard about George Lannigan? Yeah, he’s another bloke, been through the Canning Stock Route. He’s from Halls Creek too. George Lannigan. His offsider for Mal Brown.
JC: After Wally Dowling?
FJ: I mean Wally Dowling, yeah. They both, Mal Brown and … which one was that again?
FJ: Lannigan. Yes, George Lannigan. They sorta mate, some sorta mate or work for him or something like that. Work for Wally Dowling.
JC: Was that after Mal Brown left or … ?
FJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. After, I think same time, yeah. They used to go to Carnegie and start to you know, start to sorta … ‘Cause George Lannigan, he part of Domans, the workers you know, ‘cause Miss Domans she owns Billiluna. She owns, Billiluna, Carnegie, Windida, Wongawal Station. And Miss Doman still owns Wongawal Station today.
KD: Oh, so she’s still alive?
FJ: No, the nephew took it on. The Snell, Johnny Snell, he’s in Waroona, right down south. Old Wally Dowling he used to go Carnegie, muster up all the cattle, Carnegie, Wongawal, Windida, Yalama [?] Station and bring ‘em right down to Wiluna, drove ‘em right down to Wiluna. Send ‘em all in the train. He do that run too, while they drovin’ here, through this Canning and he go that a way, collect all them cattle over there an bring ‘em in through, from Carnegie, Windida, Wongawal. He do it. ‘Cause he was working with Miss Doman. Old Wally Dowling he used to work for Miss Doman, drove for him.
JC: And they’d all come down.
FJ: Yeah, yeah.
JC: They’d keep going the Stock Route.
FJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
JC: And he’d break off.
FJ: Yep. He’ll break off.
JC: And bring that other cattle through?
FJ: Yeah, go through Glen-Ayle. He’s break off there, round Number 9 [Well].
Kaye Bingham: Number 9.
FJ: Straight through to Carnegie.
KD: And what about, did they end up rounding up more than their own cattle? Were they cleanskins out there or what?
FJ: Ah … well they used to, the people work around Carnegie, Wongalwal, they do that cleanskin, they muster and brand ‘em, get’ em all ready, you know, they mark ‘em and all that and cut all the bullocks out, for the trucking, you know. They get ‘em all ready, you know, and just ready to send ‘em out, send ‘em go out, they knew they coming up from whats-a-name, Billiluna droving, when they come round about round Glen-Ayle they’ll have ‘em all ready. So Wally Dowling he’ll go straight down to Carnegie and collect all them mob and put them through that-a-way, yeah.
KD: So, was there much stealing of cattle, did people steal each other’s cattle then?
FJ: No, no. Those days they reckon though if you steal cattle, you’ll get jail inni? Something like that, [laughs] or some sorta thing [laughs].
KD: Still happening now.
FJ: Well, yeah, ah, I don’t know, must be. It’s happening now? Oh well.
KD: One bloke went to jail last year for that.
FJ: For stealing? What about shooting [laughs] somebody else’s cattle? [laughs] That’s ... [XX – KD indecipherable] Well, some people round Wiluna go and shoot somebody else cattle and, well some of the cattle they get around Wiluna. Well, they not a real cattle station, they trying to make it a cattle station but, the main cattle station, big cattle station is Carnegie and Wongawal station. That’s before everybody got to all these cattle. Glen-Ayle they got sheep and cattle. Yeah.
JC: Did Martu ever get, some of that trouble that you get kartiya [white people] shooting and spearing, did Martu ever get in trouble for taking cattle for feed?
FJ: No, no. They used to ...
KD: Did countrymen leave beef for each other?
FJ: Well, round Carnegie they used to spear cattle round there. Round Carnegie yeah, old people they used to, old people. All these mob [gestures to Country], I think [laughs]. Yeah. The people come from outback, out in the bush, never know nothing, they just come along, come in there, they just spear ‘em and cut ‘em all up, little bit eat, little bit eat, little bit eat, that’s finish, they finish the lot, yeah. Last big place where the people used to stop round Carnegie, where the big, main place where they stop, soak you know, springwater
KB: Kukwarangwanyu [?]
FJ: Yeah. That’s it, I could think of it!
JC: Yuwayi [yes].
FJ: Yeah. Yeah, I’ll think another wangka [story] later, yeah.
JC: You have a rest.
FJ: Yeah, have a rest.
JC: Yuwayi [yes], nyamu [that’s all]. I might just tell us, it’s, what the date today? 20th of July 2007, talking with Friday Jones on the Canning Stock Route, somewhere near Lake Nabberu.
FJ: Yeah Lake Nabberu.
JC: Between Lake Nabberu and Well 4A. Yuwo [yes].
FJ: Yuwo [yes].
JC: Nyamu [that’s all].
Video recording: 1 A - Friday stories, ladies camp out, Jul 07
Rights: Cultural Owner & Storyteller: Anga Friday Jones; © FORM, transcript only
Provenance: This material is sourced from Ngurra Kuju Walyja — the Canning Stock Route Project, which was initiated in 2006 by FORM and developed in partnership with Birriliburu, Kayili, KALACC, Mangkaja, Martumili, Ngurra, Papunya Tula, Paruku IPA, Warlayirti and Yulparija artists and art centres.